Discussion:
Rowan Williams vs Jack Spong
(too old to reply)
Rowland Croucher
2004-11-23 03:40:42 UTC
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Bishop Spong has nailed his '12 theses' to the Internet, and urged the
Church to debate them.

Rowan Williams considers them, and finds them neither defensible nor
interesting.

Tasmanian Anglican

October 2003


Bishop Spong's argument


Martin Luther ignited the Reformation of the 16th century by nailing to the
door of the church in Wittenberg in 1517 the 95 Theses that he wished to
debate. I will publish this challenge to Christianity in The Voice. I will
post my theses on the Internet and send copies with invitations to debate
them to the recognised Christian leaders of the world.

My theses are far smaller in number than were those of Martin Luther, but
they are far more threatening theologically. The Issues to which I now call
the Christians of the world to debate are these:

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most
theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be
found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it
becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the
theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation
from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and
post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes
Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be
interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an
incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the
world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be
dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the
meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring
inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe
and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a
post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in
scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for
all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in
human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from
the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must
abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for
what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being,
whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly
be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.

So I set these theses today before the Christian world and I stand ready to
debate each of them as we prepare to enter the third millennium.




Rowan Williams replies...


Is it time for a new Reformation? The call has gone out quite a few times in
the past three or four decades, and the imminence of the Millennium adds a
certain piquancy to it.

The Right Reverend John Spong, Bishop of Newark in the US, is right to say -
as he has done in his diocesan journal - that his own version of this demand
is of a rather different order from the earlier Reformation; and this surely
makes it imperative that his bold and gracious invitation to debate these
theses should be taken up with some urgency and seriousness, not least on
the eve of a Lambeth Conference that will undoubtedly be looking hard at
issues of Christian identity and the limits of diversity.

So I had better say at once that, while I believe Bishop Spong has, in these
and other matters, done an indispensable task in focusing our attention on
questions under-examined and poorly thought through, I believe that these
theses represent a level of confusion and misinterpretation that I find
astonishing.

He has rightly urged the Church to think more clearly in many respects about
issues of sex and gender; but I am bothered by the assumption here that the
Church has failed to think through a number of central matters on which
quantities of fairly sophisticated literature have been written over the
entire history of Christian theology.

The implication of the theses is that the sort of questions that might be
asked by a bright 20th century sixth-former would have been unintelligible
or devastating for Augustine, Rahner or Teresa of Avila. The fact is that
significant numbers of those who turn to Christian faith as educated adults
find the doctrinal and spiritual tradition which Bishop Spong treats so
dismissively a remarkably large room to live in.

Doctrinal statements may stretch and puzzle, and even repel, and yet they
still go on claiming attention and suggesting a strange, radically different
and imaginatively demanding world that might be inhabited. I'm thinking of a
good number of Eastern Europeans I know who have found their way to (at
least) a fascinated absorption in classical Christianity through involvement
in dissident politics and underground literature. Or of some American
writers who will, I'm sure, be known to Bishop Spong, from Denise Levertov
to Kathleen Norris, who have produced reflective and imaginative work out of
the same adult recovery of the tradition. Is this tradition as barren as
Spong seems to think?

To answer that requires us to look a bit harder at the theses themselves. In
a way, the first of them indicates where the trouble is going to come: for
there are at least three quite distinct senses of theism current in theology
and religious studies, and it is none too clear which is at issue here.

At the simplest level, theism is, presumably, what atheists deny. Spong
doesn't appear to think of himself as an atheist, so this can't be it.

In a more specialist context, scholars of the phenomenology of mysticism
have sometimes distinguished 'theistic' from 'monistic' experience -
theistic experience being defined as focused upon a reality ultimately
distinct from the self (and the universe), as opposed to a mysticism of
final unification. I'm not convinced that this distinction is actually a
very helpful strategy, but that is another matter; it may be that something
more like this is what Spong has in mind.

But there is also the sense, recently discussed by writers like Nicholas
Lash, of theism as the designation of that abstract belief in God
independent of the specific claims of revelation that flourished in the age
after Descartes - a sense quite close to but not identical with that of
'deism'. It is in this sense that large numbers of theologians would say
that classical Trinitarian orthodoxy is not a form of theism.

I suspect that Spong is feeling his way between the second and the third
senses. His objections seem to be to God as a being independent of the
universe who acts within the universe in a way closely analogous to the way
in which ordinary agents act. The trouble is that, while this might describe
the belief of some rationalist divines in the modern period, and while it
might sound very like the language of a good many ordinary religious
practitioners, it bears no relation at all to what any serious theologian,
from Origen to Barth and beyond, actually says about God - or, arguably, to
what the practice of believers actually implies, whatever the pictorial
idioms employed.

Classical theology maintains that God is indeed different from the universe.
To say this is to suggest a radical difference between one agent and another
in the world. God is not an object or agent over against the world; God is
the eternal activity of unconstrained love, an activity that activates all
that is around God is more intimate to the world than we can imagine, as the
source of activity or energy itself; and God is more different than we can
imagine, beyond category and kind and definition.

Thus God is never competing for space with agencies in the universe. When
God acts, this does not mean that a hole is torn in the universe by an
intervention from outside, but more that the immeasurably diverse relations
between God's act and created acts and processes may be more or less
transparent to the presence of the unconstrained love that sustains them
all.

The doctrine of the incarnation does not claim that the 'theistic' God (i.e.
a divine individual living outside the universe) turns himself into a member
of the human race, but that this human identity, Jesus of Nazareth, is at
every moment, from conception onwards, related in such a way to God the Word
(God's eternal self-bestowing and self-reflecting) that his life is
unreservedly and uniquely a medium for the unconstrained love that made all
things to be at work in the world to remake all things. Jesus embodies God
the Word or God the Son as totally as (more totally than) the musician in
performance embodies the work performed.

I don't find this bankrupt; I don't find that it fails to make sense to
those trying to learn the language of faith.

And the same point about God not competing for space is pertinent to several
of the other theses. Exactly how the presence of God's action interweaves
with various sets of created and contingent causes is not available for
inspection. We have no breakdown of the relations between God and this or
that situation in the world.

Theologians have argued that the holiness of a human individual or the
prayer of a believer may be factors in a situation that tilt the outcome in
a particular way. This is an intellectually frustrating conclusion in all
sorts of ways, but seems to be the only one that really manages to do
justice to the somewhat chaotic Christian experience of intercession and
unexpected outcomes (miracles, if you must). If the world really does rest
upon divine act, then whatever you say about the regularities of casual
chains is relativised a bit by not quite knowing what counts as a 'cause'
from God's point of view, so to speak.

Bishop Spong describes the resurrection as an act of God. I am not clear how
an immanent deity such as I think he believes in is supposed to act; but if
such a God does act, I don't see why it should be easier for God to act in
people's mind than their bodies. 'Jesus was raised into the meaning of God';
yes, but meanings are constructed by material, historical beings, with
cerebral cortices and larynxes. How does God (or 'God') make a difference to
what people mean?

Spong clearly has no time for the empty-tomb tradition; so it is no surprise
that he also dismisses the virginal conception (though why on earth this
makes Jesus's divinity 'impossible' I fail to understand). I am aware that
there are critical historical grounds for questioning both narrative
clusters and I don't want to dismiss them. But I am very wary of setting
aside the stories on the ground of a broad-brush denial of the miraculous.

For the record: I have never quite managed to see how we can make sense of
the sacramental life of the Church without a theology of the risen body; and
I have never managed to see how to put together such a theology without
belief in the empty tomb. If a corpse clearly marked 'Jesus of Nazareth'
turned up, I should save myself a lot of trouble and become a Quaker.

The virginal conception looks less straightforward, if you are neither a
fundamentalist nor someone committed to the principled denial of miracles.
Is it possible to believe in the incarnation without this? Yes, I think so
(I did for a few years). But I also have an uncomfortable feeling that the
more you reflect on the incarnation, the less of a problem you may have.
There is a rather haunting passage in John Neville Figgis about - as it were
- waking up one day and finding you believe it after all. My sentiments
exactly.

Perhaps the underlying theme in all this is that if you don't believe in a
God totally involved in and totally different from the universe, it's harder
to see the universe as gift; harder to be open to whatever sense of utter
unexpectedness about the life and death of Jesus made stories of pregnant
virgins and empty tombs perfectly intelligible; harder to grasp why people
thank God in respect of prayers answered and unanswered.

Perhaps, too, it has a bit to do with the sense of utterly unexpected
absolution or release, the freeing of the heart.

The cross as sacrifice? God knows, there are barbaric ways of putting this;
but as a complex and apparently inescapable metaphor (which, in the Bible,
is about far more than propitiation) it has always said something sobering
about the fact that human liberation doesn't come cheap, that the degree of
human self-delusion is so colossal as to involve 'some total gain or loss'
(in the words of Auden's poem about Bonhoeffer) in the task of overcoming
it. And that human beings compulsively deceive themselves about who and what
they are is a belief to which Darwinism is completely immaterial.

Of course, if you want to misunderstand Darwin as establishing a narrative
of steady spiritual or intellectual evolution, you will indeed want to say
that all existing ethical standards are relative. How, then, are you going
to deal with claims by this or that group that they are moving on to the
next evolutionary stage? In what sense can ethics fail to be about the
contests of power, if there is nothing to which we are all answerable at all
times?

Of course the parameters of ethical understanding shift: but the shifts in
Christian ethics on, for example, slavery, usury and contraception, have had
to argue long and hard to establish that they are in some way drawing out an
entailment of what is there, or honouring some fundamental principle in what
is there. In other words, these changes in convention have had to show a
responsibility to certain principles that continue to identify this kind of
talk as still recognisably Christian talk.

It makes for hard work - as is obvious with current debates about
homosexuality or nuclear war; but it is hard work because of the need to
continue listening to what is said and written.

But then we discover in Spong's theses that there is, after all, a
non-negotiable principle, based upon the image of God in human beings.
Admirable; but what does it mean in Spong's theological world? What is the
image of a 'non-theistic' God? And where, for goodness' sake, does he derive
this belief about humans? It is neither scientific nor obvious.

It is, in fact, what we used to call a dogma of revealed religion. It is a
painful example of the sheerly sentimental use of phraseology whose
rationale depends upon a theology that is being overtly rejected. What can
it be more than a rather unfairly freighted and emotive substitute for some
kind of bland egalitarianism - bland because ungrounded and therefore
desperately vulnerable to corruption, or defeat at the hands of a more
robust ideology? It is impossible to think too often of the collapse of
liberalism in 1930s Germany.

It is no great pleasure to write so negatively about a colleague from whom
I, like many others, have learned. But I cannot in any way see Bishop
Spong's theses as representing a defensible or even an interesting Christian
future. And I want to know whether the Christian past scripture and
tradition, really appears to him as empty and sterile as this text suggests.

It seems he has not found life here, and that is painful to acknowledge and
to hear. Yet I see no life in what the theses suggest; nothing to educate us
into talking about the Christian God in a way I can recognise: no
incarnation; no adoption into intimate relation with the Source of all; no
Holy Spirit. No terror. No tears.

Does he know that generations of believers have argued the need to separate
hope for life after death from earthly rewards and punishments? They believe
that the present and future delight of enjoying God's intimacy made all such
talk irrelevant.

Does he see at all that the recognition of God's image in everyone, in such
a way as to drive people to risk everything for it (Wilberforce? Dorothy
Day? Desmond Tutu? Bonhoeffer? Romero?), seems persistently to come from an
immersion in the dark reality of God's difference and in the uncompromising
paradoxes of incarnation of the Almighty?

Culturally speaking, the Christian religion is one of those subjects about
which it is cool to be ignorant. Spong's account of classical Christian
faith simply colludes with such ignorance in a way that cannot surely
reflect his own knowledge of it. I think I understand the passion behind all
this, the passion to make sense to those for whom the faith is at best
quaint and at worst oppressive, nonsense.

But the sense is made (in so far as it is made at all) by a denial of the
resources already there - to the extent that Spong's own continuing
commitment to the tradition becomes incomprehensible.

Living in the Christian institution isn't particularly easy. It is,
generally, today, an anxious inefficient, pompous, evasive body. If you hold
office on it, you become more and more conscious of what it's doing to your
soul. Think of what Coca-Cola does to your teeth. Why bother?

Well, because of the unwelcome conviction that it somehow tells the welcome
truth about God, above all in its worship and sacraments. I don't think I
could put up with it for five minutes if I didn't believe this; and - if I
can't try to say this in a pastoral, not an inquisitorial, spirit - I don't
know quite why Bishop Spong puts up with it.



At the time of writing Rowan Williams was Bishop of Monmouth. Rowan Williams
is now Archbishop of Canterbury.

Transcribed and reproduced with permission from the 17 July 1998 edition of
Church Times

Shalom!

Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
13700+ articles including 3000 clean jokes/stories
Rowland Croucher
2004-11-23 05:13:14 UTC
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And another view:
Reformations Old and New
Graham Maddox


Category: Religion


THE VISIT TO AUSTRALIA of Bishop John Shelby Spong, a man of high
integrity, is a challenge to those churches that announce the proclamation
of "the Bible for today's world". Scarcely any other contemporary Christian
thinker confronts the issues of today's world with such clarity.

Spong's offer to found a New Reformation, however, is bold beyond
prudence. He actually intends to supersede the magisterial Reformation of
the sixteenth century. To do this he sets out to clear the undergrowth by
caricaturing the achievements of the Reformation and trivialising its main
points of contention, thus preparing the ground for something really
important. Above all, he grossly underplays the extent to which the
Reformers participated in the mission of Christ.

Equally boldly, Bishop Spong has announced that "Christianity must
change or die". These sound like the words of a prophet, but the charges
against the church are far from proved. In challenging Christianity to
change in the way he would like, Spong throws down the gauntlet to Martin
Luther and pins to his webpage a set of twelve "theses", much more succinct
and pungent than Luther's, and "far more threatening theologically".

Spong is impatient with "an increasingly shrill biblical
fundamentalism", yet there is a curious fundamentalism in his own approach.
He cannot conceive of God as Creator, and "the biblical story of the perfect
and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian
mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense" (thesis 3). This moves him to discard
any theistic notion of God altogether. So "theism, as a way of defining God,
is dead" and "most theological God-talk today is meaningless" (thesis 1).
Again, "the virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's
divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible" (thesis 4). There is no
room here for a more spiritual understanding of the Incarnation, since the
bathwater and the whole bathroom are thrown out with the parthenogenetic
baby.

The sixteenth-century reformers did not presume to define God. To
construct a psychology for God was to them the height of human impertinence.
Yet they experienced God. As Luther said over and again, he did not create
the Reformation: "I left it to the Word." He and the host of reformers
experienced the Word that creates what it says. The Word, like a hammer that
breaks the rock into pieces, is shattering and explosive. It bursts forth
from every note of Bach and Handel, from every syllable of Milton and
Herbert. If "theological God-talk today" fails to apprehend that experience,
then this is a tragedy of our times. Yet for many Christians a personal
relationship with God is the mainspring of their lives.

Spong's preamble to his theses shows a touching faith in the
conclusions of popular science which he is unable to rest in popular
theology. Sir Isaac Newton is enlisted to debunk magic, miracles and divine
intervention, but we are not told why Newton remained a devout Christian to
his life's end. We hear nothing of the pathbreaking scientists - like
Mendel, Pascal, Priestley, Locke - who maintained their Christian faith
along with all their empirical findings, whereas we are told that Darwin's
theory has punctured the notion of original sin and that under his insights
"Christianity clearly wobbled". It is astonishing that Spong affirms, again
with a touching faith, that Sigmund Freud has proved that "the symbols of
Christianity" are "the manifestations of a deep-seated infantile neurosis".

There is a striking contradiction in the Spong theses. While the
central stories of the Bible are denied, and while "There is no external,
objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that
will govern our ethical behavior for all time" (thesis 9). Thesis 12, in its
admirable call for inclusiveness, proclaims that "All human beings bear
God's image and must be respected for what each person is". Which
non-theistic God is this? Which projected "infantile neurosis" is this
image?

OF COURSE Spong is not the first modern theologian to compare himself
with Luther, and he acknowledges elsewhere his debt to another Anglican
stirrer, Bishop John A.T. Robinson, the author of Honest to God, who also
proclaimed a New Reformation in the 1960s. While the challenge to fresh
thinking on the part of both new reformers is laudable, the comparison with
Luther is laughable. At least Gordon Rupp (The Old Reformation and the New,
1967) made merry in his satirical response to Robinson:

The Bishop of Woolwich sees a parallel between himself and Martin
Luther, whose 95 Theses were also caught up in a publicity explosion. I wish
him well. He has now only to be unfrocked, tried and condemned for high
treason, to write four of the world's classics, to translate the Bible and
compose a hymn book, and to write some 100 folio volumes which 400 years
hence will concern scholars all over the world, and to become the spiritual
father of some thousands of millions of Christians - to qualify as the
Martin Luther of a New Reformation.

Spong is scarcely concerned with the personal achievements or failings
of Luther, but he does express surprise "at how insignificant were the
theological issues dividing the two sides. The Reformation was not an
attempt to reformulate the Christian faith for a new era. It was rather a
battle over Church order." This statement neglects to observe that the
Reformers' endeavours to bring humankind into a right relationship with God
had incalculable effects on the modern world - indeed, on creating the
modern world. As Hegel intoned: "This is the essence of the Reformation. Man
is in his very nature destined to be free. "The place of Luther in the
history of freedom can hardly be overestimated. In the Lutheran tradition
stood (of course) Calvin, Knox and the Huguenot monarchomachs, but also
Hobbes, Roger Williams, Locke and Rousseau. The catchcry of the eighteenth
century, "man is born free", owes much to Lutheran liberation, even if
Luther would have been more inclined to say that the believer is set free.

It is important to note that for Luther, as for St Paul or Socrates,
freedom is a spiritual matter: one can be supremely free even when the body
is chained in prison. No external force can rule the conscience under grace,
fortified by a direct relationship with God. At the heart of Luther's
theological and social teaching is the two-kingdoms doctrine. God has so
arranged life for humans that each lives in two spheres of existence - the
spiritual and the temporal realms. It was the fatal mistake of the medieval
church to confuse and confound the two kingdoms. Indeed the "tyranny" of the
Church of Rome was produced by its claim to coerce consciences (for the
subjects' own good) by physical enforcement. At the level of individual
conscience, however, the two realms or "regiments" had nothing to do with
each other. The spiritual realm was the domain of inner conviction. Luther
called it a Hörreich, where consciences are persuaded by preaching and
listening and reading, study, thought and prayer. Coercion and chastisement
of the body have nothing to do with this kingdom. It is a realm of perfect
liberty, where one is free to be persuaded of a relationship with God, or
not. As Roger Williams later observed, forced worship is worse than useless
to God.

On the other hand, rule by the sword is appropriate to the temporal
realm. In this sphere sinful people are prone to damage the property and
persons of others, and a regime of coercion is provided for by God to
produce peace among peoples. It is in this light that Romans 13 adjures
people to obey the powers that be. They are part of God's plan to provide
peace and order in the world. A paradoxical consequence of Luther's
Zweiregimentlehre, apparently not noticed by Spong, is that the separation
of the spiritual and temporal realms opened the path for the very science
which Spong sees as dethroning the theology of Luther and the church. At the
level of scientific reasoning the two kingdoms do not intersect. The
spiritual realm is the realm of faith, whereas the temporal realm is the
province of reason. Theology is the business of the spiritual realm;
science, both natural and political, is the business of the temporal realm.
Just as it became inappropriate for science to deal with questions of the
nature of God and his worship, so at the same time theology was withdrawn
from the study of the physical world. Creationism is in fact a matter of the
spirit and of faith. Darwinian evolution, however blunt-edged an implement
it may still be, is a matter for reasonable explanation of the physical
realm. It has nothing to tell us about the nature of God, except that his
creative power may not be limited to the scope of human imagination. A
further level of paradox in Spong's appeal to Darwin will be noted in a
moment.

Even more earth-shattering were the consequences of Luther for the
political world. Whereas there is no place in the church for the coercion of
people for conscience's sake, and no right for the church to maintain any
instruments of punishment or coercion, neither has the magistrate, who
rightly wields the sword to curb the intemperate and to maintain the peace,
any part in dealings with the spiritual world. Above all he should have no
right to compel worship in any form, nor to interfere with worship or any
other legitimate spiritual business of the church, nor of any church. The
secular state, and the doctrine of the separation of church and state, were
certain products of Luther's revolution. Hobbes and Locke, Williams and
Milton were all participating in the Lutheran project. It is a gross mistake
to construe, as some do, the theories of Hobbes and Locke as destructive of
the church. Both were working in the temporal realm, delineated by Luther,
for the good of God's people. Scientist, statesman and political theorist,
Locke remained a devout Christian to his life's end. While once elevated as
the virtual founder of modern liberalism, he is now discarded by some
liberals for his (mistakenly) alleged religious fundamentalism.

Yet the intellectual focus of liberalism, the concept of the
individual person, was accorded a newly enhanced status through the
Reformation. The French socialist Louis Blanc attributed to Luther the
discovery of modern political individualism which would develop an
"irresistible force" when "dissociated from the religious factor". Of course
it was unthinkable for Luther to countenance this dissociation, but placing
believers face-to-face with God, no less, engendered within them a
heightened self-confidence and sense of autonomy which would unavoidably
spill over into their dealings in the temporal world.

RADIATING FROM this sharply-focused concept of an integrated
individual person were the chief ideals of the French revolutionaries:
liberty, equality, fraternity and justice, all implicit in Luther's work. We
have already noted the consequences for human liberty of Luther's life in
the spirit. His words broke forth again in Locke, Williams and Rousseau.
Since each person, in direct contact with God, could be a vessel of his
truth, then each must be free to speak of her or his insights. Dwelling in
Milton's "mansion-house of liberty", the Levellers of Cromwell's army long
anticipated von Humboldt's and J.S. Mill's demands for freedom of
expression: "better many errors of some kind suffered than one useful truth
be obstructed or destroyed". It is under this dispensation of the old
Reformation that Bishop Spong himself must be heard.

Bringing believers coram Deo produced an absolute equality among them.
Luther's position was a radical reversal of the medieval descent of power
from above. In the face of God "there is neither priest nor layman, canon
nor vicar, rich nor poor, Benedictine, Carthusian, Friar Minor nor
Augustinian, for it is not a question of this or that status, degree,
order". And Knox echoed him: "Beloved brethren, ye are all God's creatures …
and this is the point wherein I say all men are equal."

Although it might seem that Luther's individualism was inimical to
"fraternity", Luther was clear that an individual could scarcely exist in
isolation from others. Salvation was a communal achievement. In the last
analysis, the individual stands alone before God, alone accountable for his
or her life. Yet the fruits of grace are made manifest in that life when
shared with others, just as one is exhorted to love one's neighbour as
oneself. Salvation was only conceivable within a congregation, and the
congregation was most unified and "fraternal" when joined in prayer and in
song. Many have noted the proto-democratic overtones of the Lutheran
chorale. As John Wesley, himself "converted" by the words of Luther, was
later to say, he could no more envisage holy isolates than holy adulterers.

Equality, liberty, the communion of saints and the demand for free
expression were not the end of the proto-democratic implications in Luther's
work. Despite Spong's trivialising, a new dispensation of grace, a new
relationship with God, the separation of the two kingdoms, the breaking of
the universal hold of the church, the liberation of the human spirit were
all radical innovations in Luther's time. In fact, his work liberated a
spirit of religious and social innovation which ran parallel to the
discovery of new worlds, a fresh application of reason to the natural world
and the establishment of new associations as exemplified by the business
contract.

It is at this point that we encounter the second layer of paradox
concerning Spong's appeal to Darwin as a purveyor of reason to
Christianity's foolish speculations. For it was precisely from Luther's
spirit of innovation that the sustenance of Darwin's biologism was first
drawn. Many have noted, along with Hayek, that Darwin's first insights
derived from social science, from the progressive enhancement of the
individual and from experimentation with new human associations leading to
the elevation of life implicit in the Reformation project. Among Darwin's
chief mentors in this, the economist Adam Smith and the "dismal parson"
demographer, Thomas Malthus, both stood in the Lutheran tradition.

For Luther, each believer's personal contact with scripture was a
dynamic engagement with the living Word, which continued endlessly to create
what it said. To read the scriptures was to open a new encounter with the
Holy Spirit that was to spread new understandings and stimulate new
undertakings. It was not only the Puritan preacher John Robinson who was
convinced that the Lord had in store more light and truth to break forth
from his holy Word. New understandings of the scriptures led to new
experiments with worship and newly written liturgies and hymns. These in
turn led to the formation of new denominations - a seething world of
innovation and experiment quite the equal of scientific and geographic
discovery.

In the shadow of the Holocaust - indeed, in the nearer shadow of
September 11 - it is scarcely possible to repose too much faith in human
progress. Furthermore, it is still less plausible to trust that Darwin has
dethroned original sin as human lives "evolve into higher levels of
consciousness". The biggest mistake of modern democracy, as Reinhold Niebuhr
showed, is to assume that human affairs can be conducted in neglect of the
presence of human sin. Luther was well aware of it. Obviously it would be
impertinent to try to epitomate the libraries of work that have sought to
encompass the reverberations of Luther's achievements. Yet Bishop Spong
seems to shrug them off with breathtaking insouciance.

THE MOST DISAPPOINTING aspect of Spong's call for a New Reformation is
its preoccupation with belief and its near-total neglect of the need for
Christ in a torn and troubled world. It is true, the ancient creeds tell us
little about the work of Jesus, and it is as well to remember that the
Nicene Creed emerged as a tool for Constantine to consolidate a unified rule
over the Roman empire.

By contrast, the Lutheran Reformation was an explosion of love in
action. As Gordon Rupp has shown, the Reformers unleashed a new passion for
justice. Luther's individualism vested an enormously heightened dignity in
the least of Christ's brothers and sisters. Among his first public
proclamations was a call for the relief of the poor and the establishment of
community chests to provide interest-free loans to the needy. One English
Reformer, Robert Barnes, denounced the persecution of those who stole
because they could not make ends meet; Hugh Latimer, when offered preferment
of the King, pleaded instead for the life of a helpless woman condemned to
death in his home town; Martin Bucer practised a charity so warm that his
Strasbourg became a refuge for the exiled and the oppressed; Calvin spread
throughout Switzerland and far beyond new ordinances for the welfare of the
people. His follower, John Winthrop, aboard the Arbella en route to
Massachusetts, exhorted the pilgrims to invest their own welfare in each
other. The first Methodists, whose activities were eventually to issue in an
organised Christian socialist politics, left their prayer meetings to head
for the prison and the homes of the indigent.

The poor are still with us, in massively increasing numbers, and the
world is awash in a tide of homeless refugees. There are terrorist attacks
and rumours of global wars. In the throes of these catastrophes the world
urgently needs a new reformation, but one inflamed by love in action, rather
than one caught in the toils of humanist fundamentalism.


Graham Maddox teaches in the School of
Social Science at the University of New England in Armidale.

http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=540


Volume XLVII Number 12 - December 2003
--
Shalom!

Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
13700+ articles including 3000 clean jokes/stories
Rowland Croucher
2004-11-23 07:00:20 UTC
Permalink
1. Why bother debating anything with Bishop Spong?
Personally, I thought Rowan Williams answered that question very well and
very graciously in his second paragraph. Surely being unconvinced about
the integrity of someone's Christian identity doesn't render their ideas
unworthy of being engaged with. Isn't Christian apologietics all about
engaging with ideas that differ from ours?
I thank God that the Anglican communion has seen fit to appoint to their
highest office a man who is able to so brilliantly, succinctly and
graciously expose the bankrupcy of Spong's attempt to remake the Christian
faith in his own image.
At the same time, I thank God that Spong is still out there doing such a
good job of clearly articulating the questions which many are unable to
find words for, but which we need to keep hearing and understanding if we
are to preach the gospel in ways which will be heard.
Peace and hope,
--
Shalom!

Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
13700+ articles including 3000 clean jokes/stories
Chuck Stamford
2004-11-23 08:29:40 UTC
Permalink
"Rowland Croucher" <***@removethispleaseoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
message news:41a2b13a$0$20379$***@news.optusnet.com.au...

<snipping the blasphemies against God and his creation of rationale, and
getting right to the good stuff>
Post by Rowland Croucher
Rowan Williams replies...
Is it time for a new Reformation? The call has gone out quite a few times in
the past three or four decades, and the imminence of the Millennium adds a
certain piquancy to it.
The Right Reverend John Spong, Bishop of Newark in the US, is right to say -
as he has done in his diocesan journal - that his own version of this demand
is of a rather different order from the earlier Reformation; and this surely
makes it imperative that his bold and gracious invitation to debate these
theses should be taken up with some urgency and seriousness, not least on
the eve of a Lambeth Conference that will undoubtedly be looking hard at
issues of Christian identity and the limits of diversity.
Rowland, I read this some time ago as I was researching who Spong was on the
Internet. I just love this guys style! With his skill at understatement,
identifying him as English is redundant!

Chuck Stamford
Rowland Croucher
2004-11-23 10:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Stamford
<snipping the blasphemies against God and his creation of rationale, and
getting right to the good stuff>
Post by Rowland Croucher
Rowan Williams replies...
Is it time for a new Reformation? The call has gone out quite a few times in
the past three or four decades, and the imminence of the Millennium adds a
certain piquancy to it.
The Right Reverend John Spong, Bishop of Newark in the US, is right to say -
as he has done in his diocesan journal - that his own version of this demand
is of a rather different order from the earlier Reformation; and this surely
makes it imperative that his bold and gracious invitation to debate these
theses should be taken up with some urgency and seriousness, not least on
the eve of a Lambeth Conference that will undoubtedly be looking hard at
issues of Christian identity and the limits of diversity.
Rowland, I read this some time ago as I was researching who Spong was on
the Internet. I just love this guys style! With his skill at
understatement, identifying him as English is redundant!
Chuck Stamford
Who's English? We're talking here about a Welshman and an American...
--
Shalom!

Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
13800+ articles including 3000 clean jokes/stories
Bogus Fracture
2004-11-23 16:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
Who's English? We're talking here about a Welshman and an American...
They all look the same...

BF
Bob
2004-11-23 20:44:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bogus Fracture
Post by Rowland Croucher
Who's English? We're talking here about a Welshman and an American...
They all look the same...
I thought he was a Scot...
Chuck Stamford
2004-11-24 00:34:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
Post by Chuck Stamford
<snipping the blasphemies against God and his creation of rationale, and
getting right to the good stuff>
Post by Rowland Croucher
Rowan Williams replies...
Is it time for a new Reformation? The call has gone out quite a few times in
the past three or four decades, and the imminence of the Millennium adds a
certain piquancy to it.
The Right Reverend John Spong, Bishop of Newark in the US, is right to say -
as he has done in his diocesan journal - that his own version of this demand
is of a rather different order from the earlier Reformation; and this surely
makes it imperative that his bold and gracious invitation to debate these
theses should be taken up with some urgency and seriousness, not least on
the eve of a Lambeth Conference that will undoubtedly be looking hard at
issues of Christian identity and the limits of diversity.
Rowland, I read this some time ago as I was researching who Spong was on
the Internet. I just love this guys style! With his skill at
understatement, identifying him as English is redundant!
Chuck Stamford
Who's English? We're talking here about a Welshman and an American...
When did Whales fall off the island? I must have missed it in the news.

Chuck Stamford
Bogus Fracture
2004-11-23 13:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
Bishop Spong has nailed his '12 theses' to the Internet, and urged the
Church to debate them.
Rowan Williams considers them, and finds them neither defensible nor
interesting.
Tasmanian Anglican
October 2003
Bishop Spong's argument...[clip]
1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most
theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be
found.
The first sentence is uninteresting because, like, haven't we already
been through the God is dead thing? But people are slow to catch on
that *all* speech, not just God-talk, is meaningless. Theology is the
attempt to find meaning through words, a pursuit doomed to failure
because words are meaningless. It's words all the way down...layer
after layer of balderdash.

The following expressions have identical meaning:

A. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God.

B. siefh soishfo2w43r0fe wdoifhw fh9wf948fjienf woijehfoweifh

"But Bogus," you ask, "how is it that we are communucating if words
are meaningless? I know your ideas through your words."

The answer is that we are not communicating. You have no idea what I
am talking about. I have no idea what I am talking about because I am
not talking about anything.
Post by Rowland Croucher
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it
becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the
theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
Duh, from 1. 10th grade geometry.
Post by Rowland Croucher
3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation
from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and
post-Darwinian nonsense.
Yes, been there already.
Post by Rowland Croucher
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes
Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
I have heard this before, but I don't follow the reasoning.

"But Bogus," you ask, "How can you expect to understand The Very Right
Reverend Spongs' reasoning if words are meaningless?"

Yeah yeah...
Post by Rowland Croucher
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be
interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an
incarnate deity.
Non sequitur, assuming the existence of a deity. Pointless if the
nonexistence of a deity is assumed.
Post by Rowland Croucher
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the
world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be
dismissed.
Indeed. Here the VRRD prophecies, yea, lo, verily, how now brown cow.
Post by Rowland Croucher
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the
meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring
inside human history.
Non sequitur, although it is intriguing to think of what a
resurrection into meaning means if words have no meaning. Jesus was
raised into supra-lexical existence!
Post by Rowland Croucher
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe
and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a
post-Copernican space age.
Fundies say the 3-tiered universe of the Bible is metaphorical, but
they still think Jesus literally flew into the sky in the Ascention
(up, up and AWAYYYYYY!!!) and that they too will fly up into the sky
to meet him...any day now, really.
Post by Rowland Croucher
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in
scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for
all time.
God is dead. The Bible is a charming collection of ancient scrolls.
Brilliant.
Post by Rowland Croucher
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in
human history in a particular way.
Well, from 1. Geometry again. Alternate interior angels are
compulsory.
Post by Rowland Croucher
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from
the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must
abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
"But we stress the love of God!" PAH! A love that demands a
blood-dripping propitiation before it can extend forgiveness.
Post by Rowland Croucher
12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for
what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being,
whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly
be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
Nor should such descriptions be used at all. I suspect that the VRRD
might like the Bogus idea that gender does not exist. Perhaps we can
extend the concept. Perhaps race does not exist.
Post by Rowland Croucher
So I set these theses today before the Christian world and I stand ready to
debate each of them as we prepare to enter the third millennium.
You have chosen to debate Bogus Fractyre. Few have looked upon the
Official Bogus Fractyre Argumentation and walked away with sanity
intact.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Rowan Williams replies...
Hello Rowan...
Post by Rowland Croucher
Is it time for a new Reformation? The call has gone out quite a few times in
the past three or four decades, and the imminence of the Millennium adds a
certain piquancy to it.
Piquancy...is that a hot sauce?
Post by Rowland Croucher
The Right Reverend John Spong, Bishop of Newark in the US,
Dr. Williams must not be from Philadeplphia, else he would have made a
New Jersey joke.
Post by Rowland Croucher
The implication of the theses is that the sort of questions that might be
asked by a bright 20th century sixth-former would have been unintelligible
or devastating for Augustine, Rahner or Teresa of Avila. The fact is that
significant numbers of those who turn to Christian faith as educated adults
find the doctrinal and spiritual tradition which Bishop Spong treats so
dismissively a remarkably large room to live in.
I bet a lot of them don't think they are going to fly up into the air
like Superman and meet Jesus.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Doctrinal statements may stretch and puzzle, and even repel, and yet they
still go on claiming attention and suggesting a strange, radically different
and imaginatively demanding world that might be inhabited.
No, doctrinal statements are...words! And what are words? Meaningless
attempts to find meaning!

Why do you think theologians are so wordy? Why do you think they wax
so eloquent and even make up words? Because theology is not about God;
it is wordplay! And doctrinal statements are great pages in the
playbook.

Most religious traditions rely heavily on words to inform the
spirituality of the devotee, whether in the form of liturgy, song,
doctrine, whatever. The devotee comes to believe that the words are a
hint of the objective reality behind the veil, when in fact the words
*are* the objective reality...not their meaning, as they have none,
but the raw lexical material from which they are constructed.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Classical theology maintains that God is indeed different from the universe.
To say this is to suggest a radical difference between one agent and another
in the world. God is not an object or agent over against the world; God is
the eternal activity of unconstrained love, an activity that activates all
that is around God is more intimate to the world than we can imagine, as the
source of activity or energy itself; and God is more different than we can
imagine, beyond category and kind and definition.
Thus God is never competing for space with agencies in the universe. When
God acts, this does not mean that a hole is torn in the universe by an
intervention from outside, but more that the immeasurably diverse relations
between God's act and created acts and processes may be more or less
transparent to the presence of the unconstrained love that sustains them
all.
There is still no reason to believe that this, whatever it means, is
true.
Post by Rowland Croucher
The doctrine of the incarnation does not claim that the 'theistic' God (i.e.
a divine individual living outside the universe) turns himself into a member
of the human race, but that this human identity, Jesus of Nazareth, is at
every moment, from conception onwards, related in such a way to God the Word
(God's eternal self-bestowing and self-reflecting) that his life is
unreservedly and uniquely a medium for the unconstrained love that made all
things to be at work in the world to remake all things. Jesus embodies God
the Word or God the Son as totally as (more totally than) the musician in
performance embodies the work performed.
Are Spong and Williams talking about different versions of
Christianity? Sounds like the typical, "That's an absurd doctrine!"
..."I know, that's why I don't believe it!"... "Oh."
Post by Rowland Croucher
Theologians have argued that the holiness of a human individual or the
prayer of a believer may be factors in a situation that tilt the outcome in
a particular way. This is an intellectually frustrating conclusion in all
sorts of ways, but seems to be the only one that really manages to do
justice to the somewhat chaotic Christian experience of intercession and
unexpected outcomes (miracles, if you must). If the world really does rest
upon divine act, then whatever you say about the regularities of casual
chains is relativised a bit by not quite knowing what counts as a 'cause'
from God's point of view, so to speak.
Is he saying that because things happen we can't explain, we must
attribute them to God (whatever we mean by God)?
Post by Rowland Croucher
Spong clearly has no time for the empty-tomb tradition;
There was no tomb. Executed criminals were tossed into the trash heap
outside the city.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Perhaps the underlying theme in all this is that if you don't believe in a
God totally involved in and totally different from the universe, it's harder
to see the universe as gift;
And why should one see the universe as a gift?
Post by Rowland Croucher
harder to grasp why people thank God in respect of prayers answered and unanswered.
Believing a deity is there sifting through requests and granting some
while refusing others does not mean there is such a deity. Human
behavior explains nothing but human behavior.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Perhaps, too, it has a bit to do with the sense of utterly unexpected
absolution or release, the freeing of the heart.
Why do we need a transcendent/immanent God to experience a freeing of
the heart?
Post by Rowland Croucher
The cross as sacrifice? God knows, there are barbaric ways of putting this;
but as a complex and apparently inescapable metaphor (which, in the Bible,
is about far more than propitiation)
But propititation is the underlying reason it had to happen.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Of course, if you want to misunderstand Darwin as establishing a narrative
of steady spiritual or intellectual evolution, you will indeed want to say
that all existing ethical standards are relative.
Indeed, Darwin proposed a biological theory. He was not attempting to
be a theologian or ethicist.
Post by Rowland Croucher
How, then, are you going
to deal with claims by this or that group that they are moving on to the
next evolutionary stage? In what sense can ethics fail to be about the
contests of power, if there is nothing to which we are all answerable at all
times?
And on what basis are we answerable to someone else? What makes God
(whatever God is) right? Why shouldn't we be answerable to Rowland
Croucher rather than God?
Post by Rowland Croucher
But then we discover in Spong's theses that there is, after all, a
non-negotiable principle, based upon the image of God in human beings.
Admirable; but what does it mean in Spong's theological world? What is the
image of a 'non-theistic' God? And where, for goodness' sake, does he derive
this belief about humans? It is neither scientific nor obvious.
Yes, what the hell are liberal theologians talking about?

BF
Mark T
2004-11-24 03:55:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bogus Fracture
people are slow to catch on
that *all* speech, not just God-talk, is meaningless.
Chuck says that Wittgenstein is passe therefore you must be wrong. ...but
this sentence ... or words ... or whatever ... is meaningless ... just
like chuck.
Post by Bogus Fracture
Fundies say the 3-tiered universe of the Bible is metaphorical, but
they still think Jesus literally flew into the sky in the Ascention
(up, up and AWAYYYYYY!!!) and that they too will fly up into the sky
to meet him...any day now, really.
Some may be too fat to fly.
Post by Bogus Fracture
"But we stress the love of God!" PAH! A love that demands a
blood-dripping propitiation before it can extend forgiveness.
Why blood, death gore and guts! One would think God was a bit more grown up
... if he exists.
Post by Bogus Fracture
You have chosen to debate Bogus Fractyre. Few have looked upon the
Official Bogus Fractyre Argumentation and walked away with sanity
intact.
Few have tried to debate Bob and walked away with sanity intact.

It is not a miracle.
Post by Bogus Fracture
Why do you think theologians are so wordy? Why do you think they wax
so eloquent and even make up words? Because theology is not about God;
it is wordplay! And doctrinal statements are great pages in the
playbook.
Do you have to colour them in?
Post by Bogus Fracture
Are Spong and Williams talking about different versions of
Christianity?
Yes!
Post by Bogus Fracture
Is he saying that because things happen we can't explain, we must
attribute them to God (whatever we mean by God)?
I suspect so.
Post by Bogus Fracture
Indeed, Darwin proposed a biological theory. He was not attempting to
be a theologian or ethicist.
Darwin's theory was an extension of evolution that had been seen in other
areas of thought. e.g. econmomics, art, management
Mark T
2004-11-24 00:13:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
Is it time for a new Reformation?
Yes.
Post by Rowland Croucher
significant numbers of those who turn to Christian faith as educated adults
find the doctrinal and spiritual tradition which Bishop Spong treats so
dismissively a remarkably large room to live in.
... and many don't. Numbers are not an indication of truth.
Post by Rowland Croucher
theism
To me theism means belief in God who is A being rather than God who is being
itself or the Ground of being or that which creaytes and sustains being.
This is taken from Tillich's existentialist viewpoint not from mysticism nor
deism.
Post by Rowland Croucher
God is
the eternal activity of unconstrained love, an activity that activates all
that is around God is more intimate to the world than we can imagine, as the
source of activity or energy itself; and God is more different than we can
imagine, beyond category and kind and definition.
I like this.
Post by Rowland Croucher
The doctrine of the incarnation does not claim that the 'theistic' God (i.e.
a divine individual living outside the universe) turns himself into a member
of the human race
That is how I have always interpreted the kenosis (and still do) and why I
reject the idea that Jesus is God.
Post by Rowland Croucher
, but that this human identity, Jesus of Nazareth, is at
every moment, from conception onwards, related in such a way to God the Word
(God's eternal self-bestowing and self-reflecting) that his life is
unreservedly and uniquely a medium for the unconstrained love that made all
things to be at work in the world to remake all things. Jesus embodies God
the Word or God the Son as totally as (more totally than) the musician in
performance embodies the work performed.
A good metaphor that I would agree with ... it doesn't state that Jesus is
God but that God fills Jesus which is quite a different matter. This I
believe.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Exactly how the presence of God's action interweaves
with various sets of created and contingent causes is not available for
inspection. We have no breakdown of the relations between God and this or
that situation in the world.
... which is a problem that will no go away by not talking about it.
Post by Rowland Croucher
If the world really does rest
upon divine act, then whatever you say about the regularities of casual
chains is relativised a bit by not quite knowing what counts as a 'cause'
from God's point of view, so to speak.
Yep!
Post by Rowland Croucher
Bishop Spong describes the resurrection as an act of God. I am not clear how
an immanent deity such as I think he believes in is supposed to act; but if
such a God does act, I don't see why it should be easier for God to act in
people's mind than their bodies.
Spirit is more closely aligned to mind than to body.

I am not convinved by Spong's description of the resurrection.
Post by Rowland Croucher
For the record: I have never quite managed to see how we can make sense of
the sacramental life of the Church without a theology of the risen body; and
I have never managed to see how to put together such a theology without
belief in the empty tomb. If a corpse clearly marked 'Jesus of Nazareth'
turned up, I should save myself a lot of trouble and become a Quaker.
I no longer find the resurrection of Jesus to be central but rather the
grace and mercy of God.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Perhaps, too, it has a bit to do with the sense of utterly unexpected
absolution or release, the freeing of the heart.
I think this is related to the grace and mercy of God rather than to Jesus.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Of course, if you want to misunderstand Darwin as establishing a narrative
of steady spiritual or intellectual evolution, you will indeed want to say
that all existing ethical standards are relative. How, then, are you going
to deal with claims by this or that group that they are moving on to the
next evolutionary stage? In what sense can ethics fail to be about the
contests of power, if there is nothing to which we are all answerable at all
times?
... and yet the church has evolved and Christian ethics continues to evolve
when faced with new problems as the result of new technologies and new
understandings. For example: What is the exact time of death? Is it a
process? Is brain death only one stage? How would Jesus or the disciples
have understood death?
Post by Rowland Croucher
It makes for hard work - as is obvious with current debates about
homosexuality or nuclear war; but it is hard work because of the need to
continue listening to what is said and written.
Yep!
Post by Rowland Croucher
What is the image of a 'non-theistic' God?
I think Rowan Williams has failed to grasp the existentialist background to
this.
Post by Rowland Croucher
And I want to know whether the Christian past scripture and
tradition, really appears to him as empty and sterile as this text suggests.
The scriptures are not sterile to me. The traditions are interesting in the
evolution of thought that has led to today's thoughts. This is why I want
to learn more about Greek orthodoxy as a distinct thread apart from
Catholicism and Protestantism.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Yet I see no life in what the theses suggest; nothing to educate us
On the other hand, Spong's concept of God resonates with what I have read in
philosophy.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Living in the Christian institution isn't particularly easy.
Amen! ;-)
Post by Rowland Croucher
It is, generally, today, an anxious inefficient, pompous, evasive body.
Amen again! ;-)
Post by Rowland Croucher
Well, because of the unwelcome conviction that it somehow tells the welcome
truth about God, above all in its worship and sacraments.
I worship better outside the unthinking kitsch confines of a church service.
If anything the typical church service turns me off God because I cannot
believe that God can want such trite bland rubbish said about him / her /
it.

The sacraments are important as a metaphor and entry into mystical
experience of God. I do miss that.

###############################

Acrobat - U2
...

No, nothing makes sense
Nothing seems to fit
I know you'd hit out
If you only knew who to hit
And I'd join the movement
If there was one I could believe in
Yeah I'd break bread and wine
If there was a church I could receive in
'cause I need it now

To take a cup
To fill it up
To drink it slow
I can't let you go
I must be an acrobat
To talk like this
And act like that
And you can dream
So dream out loud
And don't let the bastards grind you down

Oh, it hurts baby
(What are we going to do now it's all been said)
(No new ideas in the house and every book has been read)

............

#####################################
Steve Hayes
2004-11-24 03:49:32 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:40:42 +1100, "Rowland Croucher"
Post by Rowland Croucher
Bishop Spong has nailed his '12 theses' to the Internet, and urged the
Church to debate them.
1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most
theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be
found.
God existed and was known long before theism.

"Theism" is a backformation from "atheism", and has very little to do with
anyone's way of "defining" God. "Theism" is mainly a way of defining the god
that atheists say they don't believe in.
Post by Rowland Croucher
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it
becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the
theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
Hardly, since the incarnation preceded theism.
Post by Rowland Croucher
3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation
from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and
post-Darwinian nonsense.
Another straw man.

The biblical story is not, and certainly has not traditionally been understood
by Christians, as a "perfect and finished" creation.
Post by Rowland Croucher
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes
Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
In the light of 1-3 "traditionally understood" should probably be translated
as "misunderstood by Spong".
Post by Rowland Croucher
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be
interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an
incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the
world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be
dismissed.
Yes SIR!

We will obey your orders, SIR!

No barbarians, SIR!

We will eschew the primitive, SIR!

Jawohl, Mein Fuehrer!
Post by Rowland Croucher
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the
meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring
inside human history.
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe
and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a
post-Copernican space age.
Another infantile misunderstanding masquerading as hermeneutics.
Post by Rowland Croucher
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in
scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for
all time.
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in
human history in a particular way.
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from
the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must
abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for
what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being,
whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly
be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
What is God's image, and how is it to be understood in relation to the
"theistic" or "non-theistic" understanding of it?

In saying that the "theistic understanding" of God is dead, Spong implies that
he does not share a common understanding of God with his interloqutors, and
without such a shared understanding, "God's image" is meaningless.
Post by Rowland Croucher
So I set these theses today before the Christian world and I stand ready to
debate each of them as we prepare to enter the third millennium.
Why bother?

As they are now formulated, most of them are straw men that bear little
relation to the beliefs of "the Christian world".

Twentierth-century Western theologians have been saying "our image of God must
go" for generations now.

And when I read that kind of stuff, I empathise with the savage in Aldous
Huxley's "Brave new world" who, in his debate with Mustapha Mond, opted for
primitve barbarism rather than the modern nightmare.

And I am reminded of the words of Colin Morris, who wrote, nearly 40 years
ago, in response to similar theses:

"The phrase 'Revolutionary Christianity' is fashionable . But what it
describes is more often a way of talking than a way of walking. It is
revolution at the level of argument rather than action. We take daring
liberties with the Christianity of the Creeds and the traditional ideas about
God. We go into the fray, armed to rend an Altizer or Woolwich apart or defend
them to the death. We sup the heady wine of controversy and nail our colours
to the mast -- mixing our metaphors in the excitement! The Church, we cry, is
in ferment. She has bestirred herself out of her defensive positions and is on
the march! And so she is -- on the march to the nearest bookshop or
theological lecture room or avant garde church to expose herself to the latest
hail of verbal and paper missiles.

"This is not revolution. It has more in common with the frenzied scratching of
a dog to rid itself of fleas than an epic march on the Bastille or the Winter
Palace. Revolutionary Christianity is so uncomplicated in comparison that it
is almost embarassing to have to put it into words. It is simply doing costly
things for Jesus' sake.

"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the God of
traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God beyond God' any
more interesting. For this is really exchanging the theological word game for
the word game of the philosophers, and both are intellectual pastimes whose
devotees are probably less numerous than Times crossword fans though drawn
from the same corners of our society. The judgement upon is us not that we
have failed to bring our theology into line with the best modern thought,
though that may be true, but that we do not act to the limit of the theology
we already have."
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Rowland Croucher
2004-11-24 04:53:30 UTC
Permalink
"Steve Hayes" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@news.saix.net...
<>
Post by Steve Hayes
And I am reminded of the words of Colin Morris, who wrote, nearly 40 years
"The phrase 'Revolutionary Christianity' is fashionable . But what it
describes is more often a way of talking than a way of walking. It is
revolution at the level of argument rather than action. We take daring
liberties with the Christianity of the Creeds and the traditional ideas about
God. We go into the fray, armed to rend an Altizer or Woolwich apart or defend
them to the death. We sup the heady wine of controversy and nail our colours
to the mast -- mixing our metaphors in the excitement! The Church, we cry, is
in ferment. She has bestirred herself out of her defensive positions and is on
the march! And so she is -- on the march to the nearest bookshop or
theological lecture room or avant garde church to expose herself to the latest
hail of verbal and paper missiles.
"This is not revolution. It has more in common with the frenzied scratching of
a dog to rid itself of fleas than an epic march on the Bastille or the Winter
Palace. Revolutionary Christianity is so uncomplicated in comparison that it
is almost embarassing to have to put it into words. It is simply doing costly
things for Jesus' sake.
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the God of
traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God beyond God' any
more interesting. For this is really exchanging the theological word game for
the word game of the philosophers, and both are intellectual pastimes whose
devotees are probably less numerous than Times crossword fans though drawn
from the same corners of our society. The judgement upon is us not that we
have failed to bring our theology into line with the best modern thought,
though that may be true, but that we do not act to the limit of the theology
we already have."
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Mark, have you read any Colin Morris? Very challenging...

What's your reaction to this quote?

BTW thank you for your balanced response to Rowan Williams. Very
interesting...
--
Shalom!

Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
13800+ articles including 3000 clean jokes/stories
Mark T
2004-11-24 06:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
Mark, have you read any Colin Morris? Very challenging...
Yes but I wasn't that impressed with him. I gave away all his books to
Christian friends who were interested.
Post by Rowland Croucher
What's your reaction to this quote?
"The philosophic may be a better understanding of God ...and numbers
do not indicate truth."

A little more detail .....
Post by Rowland Croucher
"The phrase 'Revolutionary Christianity' is fashionable . But what it
describes is more often a way of talking than a way of walking. It is
revolution at the level of argument rather than action.
Thought preceeds action (hopefully). the idea comes before action on the
idea happens.
Post by Rowland Croucher
Revolutionary Christianity is so uncomplicated in comparison that it
is almost embarassing to have to put it into words. It is simply doing costly
things for Jesus' sake.
I would rather do things for God because I am compelled by the love, mercy
and grace of God.
Post by Rowland Croucher
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the God of
traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God beyond God' any
more interesting.
Better metaphor in a language that better explains my experience.
Post by Rowland Croucher
For this is really exchanging the theological word game for
the word game of the philosophers
Yes! It is time that theologians also learnt current philosophy for this is
where the cutting edge is.
Post by Rowland Croucher
The judgement upon is us not that we have failed to bring our theology into
line with >the best modern thought, though that may be true
I think the church has failed to critically understand modern thought ...
and art! The organised church is always several decades behind the culture
it lives in.
Post by Rowland Croucher
but that we do not act to the limit of the theology we already have."
The limits are too confined. God as A being died with Nietzsche and was
killed again by Sartre. No-opne can read either author without being struck
by the truth that they give in this area. The church has been propping up
the corpse ever since.
Rowland Croucher
2004-11-24 23:17:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe
and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a
post-Copernican space age.
A friend's response:

Statements like this from Spong really irk me. They suggest to me an
ignorance
about Copernicus through failure to read primary historical documents.
Copernicus did not bring us into the space age; he held us up. His approach
was
not that of an empirical scientist, but of the rejection of empirical
science -
a fact readily ascertained from his own writings.

Copernicus promoted helicoentrism, a notion about the Solar System derived
from
ancient Egyptian and Greek mysticism. Heliocentrism had been around for
centuries. It was known not only to the ancient Greeks, but also to the
Romans
in the time of Christ. Uncannily as close to the truth as it was, it had one
major fault. It didn't quite work.

Copernicus himself had extreme reservations about it. He introduced it in
Book I
of his "Revolutions" and by Book III his theory was in tatters because it
did
not accord with observations. Copernicus had made a mere 27 observation
(less
than the typical amateur astronomer makes in a single night), but these did
not
accord with his theory.

The reason why Copernicus bothered to make so few observations is revealed
in
his writings. He held the ancients in high esteem and modern scientists in
extreme contempt. Therefore, he could espouse a theory which did not agree
with
his own data. In his "Letter Against Werner" (1604), Copernicus wrote:

". It is fitting for us to follow the methods of the ancients strictly and
to
hold fast to their observations which have been handed down to us like a
Testament. And to him who thinks that they are not to be entirely trusted in
this respect, the gates of our Science are certainly closed. He will lie
before
that gate and spin the dreams of the deranged about the motions of the
eighth
sphere; and he will get what he deserved for believing that he can lend
support
to his own hallucinations by slandering the ancients."

This letter clearly states that one must reject scientific data in favour of
the
ancients and their mysticism. This is the antithesis of science. In like
manner,
Galileo wrote in his "Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina concerning the
Use
of Biblical Quotations in Matters of Science" (1615), indicating he shared
Copernicus' faith in the ancients. Both Copernicus and Galileo pursued the
belief of the ancient mystics that celestial bodies must move in perfect
circles
with uniform motion, as the only motion befitting heavenly bodies. In fact,
Copernicus explained that it was the failure to adhere to uniform motion
that
spurred him to reject the earth-centred view. So enamoured was Galileo of
this
ancient mysticism that one of his defences of heliocentrism included the
claim
that comets were meteorological phenomenon, long after everybody else had
rejected this idea, because he could not accept they had parabolic rather
than
circular orbits.

The only man to challenge the belief that the motion of celestial bodies was
determined, not by ancient ideology, but by physical forces, was Johannes
Kepler. His primitive theory of gravity to explain the motion of celestial
bodies removed celestial mechanics from the mystical ideology of Copernicus
and
Galileo and placed it into the realm of physics. He thus proved that the
Solar
System is barycentric (determined by a common centre of gravity), not
heliocentric (with the Sun at the centre. In consequence, the celestial
bodies
move in elliptical orbits which defy the mystical convictions of Copernicus
and
Galileo and their ancient mentors. The difference is that between mysticism
and
physics.

We do not live in an age determined by Copernicus, but by Kepler, the
"Father of
Celestial Mechanics". It is Spong's tendency to follow popular mythology
rather
than historical accuracy in this regard which I consider undermines his
credibility as a whole.
--
Shalom!

Rowland Croucher
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/
13800+ articles including 3000 clean jokes/stories
Mark T
2004-11-24 06:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the God of
traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God beyond God' any
more interesting. For this is really exchanging the theological word game for
the word game of the philosophers, and both are intellectual pastimes whose
devotees are probably less numerous than Times crossword fans though drawn
from the same corners of our society.
However the philosophic may be a better understanding of God ...and numbers
do not indicate truth.
Post by Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Read "The Testimony of Steve Biko" Edited by Millard Arnold (Maurice Temple
Smith; London:1979) Need I mention your country's treatment of Christians
like Steve Biko (an Anglican ... p. 98) who chose to defy your previous
racist government? Biko was well versed in the teachings of the Catholic
Paulo Friere whom the white protestant church disavowed. Which of your
white Christians who hold a traditional concept of God and the Christ spoke
up for Biko??????

Christianity is proved by actions and fruit. I am more impressed with the
Black theology held by Biko than with the South African white church which
stood by while he was murdered and did nothing ... even though they held
"correct dogma".
Steve Hayes
2004-11-25 02:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark T
Post by Steve Hayes
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the God of
traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God beyond God' any
more interesting. For this is really exchanging the theological word game for
the word game of the philosophers, and both are intellectual pastimes whose
devotees are probably less numerous than Times crossword fans though drawn
from the same corners of our society.
However the philosophic may be a better understanding of God ...and numbers
do not indicate truth.
Post by Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Read "The Testimony of Steve Biko" Edited by Millard Arnold (Maurice Temple
Smith; London:1979) Need I mention your country's treatment of Christians
like Steve Biko (an Anglican ... p. 98) who chose to defy your previous
racist government? Biko was well versed in the teachings of the Catholic
Paulo Friere whom the white protestant church disavowed. Which of your
white Christians who hold a traditional concept of God and the Christ spoke
up for Biko??????
Christianity is proved by actions and fruit. I am more impressed with the
Black theology held by Biko than with the South African white church which
stood by while he was murdered and did nothing ... even though they held
"correct dogma".
Which is precisely the point being made by Colin Morris (he maintained that
all the hot air of the Western theologians <piss off dial-up netowrking>
was an elaborate conspiracy against a man who died of starvation in the street
near his house.

And Spong's Western ethnocentric rants about "barbarians" and "primitve"
suggest to me that he couldn't give a damn about Steve Biko.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Steve Hayes
2004-11-25 13:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark T
Post by Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Read "The Testimony of Steve Biko" Edited by Millard Arnold (Maurice Temple
Smith; London:1979) Need I mention your country's treatment of Christians
like Steve Biko (an Anglican ... p. 98) who chose to defy your previous
racist government? Biko was well versed in the teachings of the Catholic
Paulo Friere whom the white protestant church disavowed. Which of your
white Christians who hold a traditional concept of God and the Christ spoke
up for Biko??????
Christianity is proved by actions and fruit. I am more impressed with the
Black theology held by Biko than with the South African white church which
stood by while he was murdered and did nothing ... even though they held
"correct dogma".
The actions and fruit bit is precisely the point that Colin Morris is making,
as the following extract also illustrates:

Irrelevance of theology and church unity schemes.
Source: Morris 1968:29-30.
"My grandstand view of the martyrdom of the Church in the
Congo Counter-revolution taught me to distrust those
conventional labels we pin on our fellow Christians. Over
three hundred missionaries, mostly Roman Catholics and extreme
fundamentalists, were killed. They not only bled the same way
but whether they died clutching crucifixes or Schofield
Reference Bibles they died for the same reason and the same
Lord. When the chips were down in that tragic mess, men and
women stood revealed for what they were, their theological
labels abandoned with the rest of their possessions. Some
theological radicals, fond of booming about _relevance_ and
_involvement_ were not to be found. Their presence was
urgently needed elsewhere. It was often Bible-punching
conservatives who believed literally in Adam and Eve and
damned drinkers and smokers and swearers to hell who stood up
to be counted. Your theology, fancy or plain, is what you are
when the talking stops and the action starts."
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
brachypodium
2004-11-25 16:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
They not only bled the same way
but whether they died clutching crucifixes or Schofield
Reference Bibles they died for the same reason and the same
Lord.<
That remains to be seen. Men will die for a variety of reasons, most usually
selfish or desperate ones.

brachypodium
2004-11-24 13:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowland Croucher
Bishop Spong has nailed his '12 theses' to the Internet, and urged the
Church to debate them.
Drawn from my book Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to
Believers in Exile
A Call for a New Reformation
'1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. God can no longer be
understood with credibility as a Being, supernatural in power, dwelling
above the sky and prepared to invade human history periodically to enforce
the divine will.'

If 'dwelling above the sky' is excluded, the sentence becomes rather
obviously wrong. Spong attacks a medieval position, obsolete for centuries,
in order to say nothing of value.

As the conclusion is unjustified, being based on a 'straw man', so is this
following para:

' 2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes
nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic
deity. So, the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.'

One cannot reject Christianity on the ground that outer space shows no
divine presence, especially as the New Testament tells us that God is
spirit.

'3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which
human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-­Darwinian
nonsense.'

This is plain dishonest, and pretty stupid, too, as Spong must realise that
the majority of Anglicans/Episcopalians do not hold early Genesis to be
literally true. In fact the fundamentalist interpretation of it is all but
absent from the statements of faith of denominations everywhere.

Darwin is irrelevant. Darwin himself accepted the intellectual, non-literal
validity of early Genesis, so Spong really ought to catch up.

'4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes the divinity of
Christ, as traditionally understood, impossible.'

Can anyone tell me which bit of new biological knowledge Spong is thinking
of here? Or is he simply using the word 'biology' as some magic mantra that
will instantly dissolve traditional understanding? Let's write his sentence
more honestly.

'The virgin birth, understood as a literal event, makes the divinity of
Christ, as traditionally understood, impossible.'

Which is absurd; it does precisely the reverse.

'5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in
a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate
deity.'

Another absurdity. Newton's laws make no difference whatever to the
possibility of miraculous acts! Newton made no discernible difference to
Christian belief historically. A great many physicists today believe in the
miracles of Jesus.

'6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a
barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God that must be dismissed.'

It was the barbarian behaviour of humanity that brought about the cross, and
it may be argued that since the cross events have given no indication that
human nature has changed.

'7. Resurrection is an action of God, who raised Jesus into the meaning of
God.'

That is not found in Scripture, and appears to be nonsense, anyway.

'It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring inside human
history.'

This seems to be circular argument: physical resuscitation is impossible, so
Jesus was not physically resuscitated. The whole point is that the raising
of Jesus was indeed impossible without the supernatural. That was the 'sign
of Jonah' that Jesus said was to be the only sign given to the wicked. This
seems to be a deliberate perversity of Spong.

'8. The story of the ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is
therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a
post-Copernican space age.'

It has long been supposed that it is not meant to be.

' 9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in Scripture or
on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.'

Cain was punished for murder without any command not to murder, and theft
was 'a wicked thing' before Moses. The Ten Commandments condemn murder and
theft, of course, and Paul reiterates their moral value in Romans 13. Even
hatred is condemned in the New Testament, as are other characteristics.

'Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with
every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving
each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.' (Eph 4:31-32 NIV )

But if Spong has evidence that God has changed his mind about more obviously
wicked practices such as murder, theft, etc., he might have a genuine 'Call
for a New Reformation', though others might suppose it a call for anarchy.

'Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.' (Matt
24:35 NIV)

'10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human
history in a particular way.'

This again appears to be nonsense. It is not suggested by anyone that prayer
can change the past. Perhaps Spong would re-phrase.

'11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the
behavior-control mentality of reward and punishment.'

Again, no reason is given. The threat of hell may be the only disincentive
to evil for some, and very necessary.

'The church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of
behavior.'

The church does not rely on guilt, though false churches have done. When the
gospel is preached authentically, people naturally feel guilt that is
appropriate to bringing them salvation. That is inherent to the gospel, and
to Christianity, and if Spong does not preach it, someone else will.

'12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for what each
person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being, whether based
on race, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, can properly be used as
the basis for either rejection or discrimination.'

Race, ethnicity, and gender are all unarguably beyond the choice of any
individual. Sexual behaviour undoubtedly is not. Along with a desire to
suppress the truth, certain sexual behaviour is seen by the New Testament as
a consequence of opposition to God.

Not one of these twelve theses is justified here; they are attacks on
outmoded straw men, verbal tricks, and simple inaccuracies. They are closer
to twelve absurdities and imv have in themselves no basis for sensible
discussion.
Thomas Hankin
2004-11-24 15:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
And I am reminded of the words of Colin Morris, who wrote, nearly 40
"The phrase 'Revolutionary Christianity' is fashionable . But what it
describes is more often a way of talking than a way of walking. It is
revolution at the level of argument rather than action. We take daring
liberties with the Christianity of the Creeds and the traditional
ideas about God. We go into the fray, armed to rend an Altizer or
Woolwich apart or defend them to the death. We sup the heady wine of
controversy and nail our colours to the mast -- mixing our metaphors
in the excitement! The Church, we cry, is in ferment. She has
bestirred herself out of her defensive positions and is on the march!
And so she is -- on the march to the nearest bookshop or theological
lecture room or avant garde church to expose herself to the latest
hail of verbal and paper missiles.
"This is not revolution. It has more in common with the frenzied
scratching of a dog to rid itself of fleas than an epic march on the
Bastille or the Winter Palace. Revolutionary Christianity is so
uncomplicated in comparison that it is almost embarassing to have to
put it into words. It is simply doing costly things for Jesus' sake.
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the
God of traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God
beyond God' any more interesting. For this is really exchanging the
theological word game for the word game of the philosophers, and both
are intellectual pastimes whose devotees are probably less numerous
than Times crossword fans though drawn from the same corners of our
society. The judgement upon is us not that we have failed to bring our
theology into line with the best modern thought, though that may be
true, but that we do not act to the limit of the theology we already
have."
Thank you, Steve, for the above outstanding response.

God Bless.

Tom.
brachypodium
2004-11-24 16:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Hankin
Post by Steve Hayes
And I am reminded of the words of Colin Morris, who wrote, nearly 40
"The phrase 'Revolutionary Christianity' is fashionable . But what it
describes is more often a way of talking than a way of walking. It is
revolution at the level of argument rather than action. We take daring
liberties with the Christianity of the Creeds and the traditional
ideas about God. We go into the fray, armed to rend an Altizer or
Woolwich apart or defend them to the death. We sup the heady wine of
controversy and nail our colours to the mast -- mixing our metaphors
in the excitement! The Church, we cry, is in ferment. She has
bestirred herself out of her defensive positions and is on the march!
And so she is -- on the march to the nearest bookshop or theological
lecture room or avant garde church to expose herself to the latest
hail of verbal and paper missiles.
"This is not revolution. It has more in common with the frenzied
scratching of a dog to rid itself of fleas than an epic march on the
Bastille or the Winter Palace. Revolutionary Christianity is so
uncomplicated in comparison that it is almost embarassing to have to
put it into words. It is simply doing costly things for Jesus' sake.
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the
God of traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God
beyond God' any more interesting. For this is really exchanging the
theological word game for the word game of the philosophers, and both
are intellectual pastimes whose devotees are probably less numerous
than Times crossword fans though drawn from the same corners of our
society. The judgement upon is us not that we have failed to bring our
theology into line with the best modern thought, though that may be
true, but that we do not act to the limit of the theology we already
have."
Thank you, Steve, for the above outstanding response.
;o)
Bob
2004-11-24 21:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:40:42 +1100, "Rowland Croucher"
Post by Rowland Croucher
Bishop Spong has nailed his '12 theses' to the Internet, and urged the
Church to debate them.
1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most
theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be
found.
God existed and was known long before theism.
"Theism" is a backformation from "atheism", and has very little to do with
anyone's way of "defining" God. "Theism" is mainly a way of defining the god
that atheists say they don't believe in.
Post by Rowland Croucher
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it
becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the
theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
And these Australian pseudo-Christians wonder why we all think they are
as lost as a goose.........
Post by Steve Hayes
Hardly, since the incarnation preceded theism.
Post by Rowland Croucher
3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation
from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and
post-Darwinian nonsense.
Another straw man.
The biblical story is not, and certainly has not traditionally been understood
by Christians, as a "perfect and finished" creation.
Post by Rowland Croucher
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes
Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
In the light of 1-3 "traditionally understood" should probably be translated
as "misunderstood by Spong".
Post by Rowland Croucher
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be
interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an
incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the
world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be
dismissed.
Yes SIR!
We will obey your orders, SIR!
No barbarians, SIR!
We will eschew the primitive, SIR!
Jawohl, Mein Fuehrer!
Post by Rowland Croucher
7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the
meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation occurring
inside human history.
8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe
and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a
post-Copernican space age.
Another infantile misunderstanding masquerading as hermeneutics.
Post by Rowland Croucher
9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in
scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for
all time.
10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in
human history in a particular way.
11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from
the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must
abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.
12. All human beings bear God's image and must be respected for
what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one's being,
whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly
be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.
What is God's image, and how is it to be understood in relation to the
"theistic" or "non-theistic" understanding of it?
In saying that the "theistic understanding" of God is dead, Spong implies that
he does not share a common understanding of God with his interloqutors, and
without such a shared understanding, "God's image" is meaningless.
Post by Rowland Croucher
So I set these theses today before the Christian world and I stand ready to
debate each of them as we prepare to enter the third millennium.
Why bother?
As they are now formulated, most of them are straw men that bear little
relation to the beliefs of "the Christian world".
Twentierth-century Western theologians have been saying "our image of God must
go" for generations now.
And when I read that kind of stuff, I empathise with the savage in Aldous
Huxley's "Brave new world" who, in his debate with Mustapha Mond, opted for
primitve barbarism rather than the modern nightmare.
And I am reminded of the words of Colin Morris, who wrote, nearly 40 years
"The phrase 'Revolutionary Christianity' is fashionable . But what it
describes is more often a way of talking than a way of walking. It is
revolution at the level of argument rather than action. We take daring
liberties with the Christianity of the Creeds and the traditional ideas about
God. We go into the fray, armed to rend an Altizer or Woolwich apart or defend
them to the death. We sup the heady wine of controversy and nail our colours
to the mast -- mixing our metaphors in the excitement! The Church, we cry, is
in ferment. She has bestirred herself out of her defensive positions and is on
the march! And so she is -- on the march to the nearest bookshop or
theological lecture room or avant garde church to expose herself to the latest
hail of verbal and paper missiles.
"This is not revolution. It has more in common with the frenzied scratching of
a dog to rid itself of fleas than an epic march on the Bastille or the Winter
Palace. Revolutionary Christianity is so uncomplicated in comparison that it
is almost embarassing to have to put it into words. It is simply doing costly
things for Jesus' sake.
"For the life of me I cannot see why a world which has rejected the God of
traditional theology should find Woolwich's or Tillich's 'God beyond God' any
more interesting. For this is really exchanging the theological word game for
the word game of the philosophers, and both are intellectual pastimes whose
devotees are probably less numerous than Times crossword fans though drawn
from the same corners of our society. The judgement upon is us not that we
have failed to bring our theology into line with the best modern thought,
though that may be true, but that we do not act to the limit of the theology
we already have."
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
dallash700
2004-11-24 19:52:11 UTC
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